Sign of the Son of Man

Sign of the Son of Man

Sign of the Son of man Matthew 24:30 What does the Bible tell us about the sign of the Son of man? Is it described in Revelation? Psalms 110? Ezekiel? Isaiah? Daniel? Gospels? The sign of the return of Jesus.

I’ll build this as a Scripture-chain, not a speculation chain: first Matthew 24 itself, then the OT texts Matthew is drawing from, then Revelation’s fuller vision of the same appearing.

Thought for 41s

Core answer#

The Bible does not describe the “sign of the Son of man” as a separate symbol like a banner, star, cross-shape, or secret code.

Matthew describes it by its location, effect, and event:

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” — Matthew 24:30

So the safest Bible answer is:

The sign of the Son of man is the public heavenly manifestation that Jesus, the crucified and rejected Son of David, is the Daniel 7 Son of Man, now appearing in divine glory, royal authority, judgment, and kingdom power.

It is not hidden. It is not merely local. It is not just “wars and rumors of wars.” It is the visible unveiling of the King.

1. Matthew 24 gives the main description#

Matthew places the sign after cosmic disturbance:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light…” — Matthew 24:29

Then:

“Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven…” — Matthew 24:30

Then the result:

“Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn…” — Matthew 24:30

Then the visible appearing:

“They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” — Matthew 24:30

Then the gathering:

“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect…” — Matthew 24:31

So Matthew gives a sequence:

cosmic shaking → sign in heaven → nations mourn → Son of Man seen coming with clouds → trumpet → angels gather the elect.

That means the “sign” is tied to recognition. The world finally sees who Jesus is.

2. Daniel 7 is the backbone#

Matthew 24 is built heavily on Daniel 7.

“I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days…” — Daniel 7:13

Then Daniel says:

“And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him…” — Daniel 7:14

This is the main peg.

In Daniel, the Son of Man receives:

dominion, glory, kingdom, universal service, and everlasting rule.

So when Jesus says the world will see “the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven,” He is not merely saying, “I will return.” He is saying:

You will see Me revealed as the Daniel 7 King.

That is why the sign is terrifying to the rebellious nations. It means the rejected Jesus is the true ruler.

3. Psalm 110 explains His present throne and final victory#

Psalm 110 is not the exact phrase “sign of the Son of man,” but it explains the royal authority behind it.

“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” — Psalm 110:1

Jesus uses this psalm in Matthew 22:41-46 to show that the Messiah is not merely David’s son, but also David’s Lord.

Then, at His trial, Jesus joins Psalm 110 and Daniel 7 together:

“Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.” — Matthew 26:64

That is huge.

Jesus combines:

Psalm 110 — sitting at the right hand with Daniel 7 — coming with the clouds of heaven

So the sign of the Son of Man is the open proof that Jesus is already enthroned at God’s right hand, and that His enemies are about to be made His footstool.

Psalm 110 also says:

“The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.” — Psalm 110:2

And:

“The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.” — Psalm 110:5

So Psalm 110 tells us the return of Jesus is not only comfort for the saints. It is also royal judgment against hostile powers.

4. Revelation describes the same appearing#

Revelation does not usually call it “the sign of the Son of man,” but it clearly describes the same event.

Revelation opens with this:

“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.” — Revelation 1:7

That is almost a direct Revelation version of Matthew 24:30.

Matthew says:

“All the tribes of the earth mourn…”

Revelation says:

“All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.”

Matthew says:

“Coming in the clouds of heaven…”

Revelation says:

“He cometh with clouds…”

So Revelation confirms that the sign is public, visible, heavenly, and universal.

Revelation 14 also gives a Son of Man vision:

“And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.” — Revelation 14:14

That gives the same categories:

cloud, Son of Man, crown, harvest, judgment.

Then Revelation 19 shows heaven opened:

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True…” — Revelation 19:11

And:

“He hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” — Revelation 19:16

So Revelation describes the return as the public unveiling of the true King, the Judge, the Warrior, and the Lamb who has become openly victorious.

5. Isaiah gives the cosmic and kingdom imagery#

Isaiah contributes many of the images Jesus uses in Matthew 24.

Cosmic darkening:

“For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened…” — Isaiah 13:10

The LORD reigning in glory:

“Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion…” — Isaiah 24:23

The great trumpet:

“And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown…” — Isaiah 27:13

The revealed glory:

“And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together…” — Isaiah 40:5

The Redeemer coming:

“The Redeemer shall come to Zion…” — Isaiah 59:20

The LORD coming with fire and judgment:

“For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind…” — Isaiah 66:15

So Isaiah supplies the atmosphere around the sign:

darkened heavens, revealed glory, trumpet, Zion, Redeemer, judgment, nations seeing the glory of God.

6. Ezekiel contributes glory, throne, man-likeness, return, and dwelling#

Ezekiel does not directly describe “the sign of the Son of man” the way Matthew does.

Also, in Ezekiel, “son of man” is usually God’s address to Ezekiel the prophet, not the Daniel 7 messianic title.

But Ezekiel gives important background imagery.

Ezekiel sees a throne vision:

“And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne… and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.” — Ezekiel 1:26

That matters because Ezekiel sees glory, throne, heaven, and man-likeness together.

Then Ezekiel sees the glory of God return:

“And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east… and the earth shined with his glory.” — Ezekiel 43:2

And:

“The glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.” — Ezekiel 43:4

Ezekiel 37 also gives the kingdom-dwelling promise:

“And David my servant shall be king over them…” — Ezekiel 37:24

And:

“Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them…” — Ezekiel 37:26

And:

“My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” — Ezekiel 37:27

So Ezekiel helps frame the sign as more than “Jesus appears in the sky.” It is the return of glory, throne authority, Davidic rule, covenant peace, and God dwelling with His people.

7. The Gospels repeat and clarify the same event#

Mark’s version says:

“Then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.” — Mark 13:26

Luke’s version says:

“And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” — Luke 21:27

Luke adds the comfort side:

“And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” — Luke 21:28

Matthew 25 adds the throne/judgment scene:

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.” — Matthew 25:31

So the Gospels agree:

Son of Man, cloud, glory, angels, throne, judgment, redemption.

8. Zechariah is also directly connected#

Even though you did not list Zechariah, Revelation 1:7 strongly pulls from it.

“They shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him…” — Zechariah 12:10

Revelation says:

“Every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him…” — Revelation 1:7

This connects the sign to recognition of the pierced one.

The world does not merely see a powerful king. They see that the crucified one was the true King all along.

That is why they mourn.

9. The sign is not merely “a warning”; it is a verdict#

A warning happens before the verdict.

But Matthew 24:30 sounds like the verdict has arrived.

The sign says:

The Son of Man is here. The throne is His. The clouds belong to Him. The angels obey Him. The nations answer to Him. The elect are gathered by Him. The enemies are judged by Him.

This is why Matthew 24, Daniel 7, Psalm 110, and Revelation fit together so tightly.

Daniel 7 gives the title: Son of Man. Psalm 110 gives the throne: right hand until enemies are footstool. Matthew 24 gives the sign: appearing in heaven, coming with clouds. Revelation gives the unveiling: every eye sees Him, heaven opens, King of kings appears.

Master peg#

The “sign of the Son of man” is best understood as:

the heavenly, visible, public manifestation of Jesus as the Daniel 7 Son of Man and Psalm 110 enthroned Lord, coming with clouds, glory, angels, trumpet, judgment, and gathering power.

It is the moment when the hidden truth becomes publicly undeniable:

The rejected Jesus is the reigning King.

Could the sign be the lightning in Matthew 24:27?

Thought for 10s

Yes — it could be connected, but I would word it carefully:

Matthew 24:27 probably describes the nature/visibility of the sign, but it does not plainly identify the sign itself as “lightning.”

Jesus says:

“For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” — Matthew 24:27

Then a few verses later:

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” — Matthew 24:30

So the safest reading is:

The lightning is not necessarily a separate object called “the sign,” but it describes the sudden, public, heaven-wide, unmistakable appearing of the Son of Man.

In context, Jesus is warning:

“If they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.” — Matthew 24:26

Then He gives the lightning comparison.

That means His return will not be hidden, secret, localized, or dependent on someone saying, “Come over here and see Him.”

It will be like lightning across the sky — visible, sudden, unmistakable.

So the clean peg would be:#

Matthew 24:27 describes the manner of His coming. Matthew 24:30 describes the sign appearing in heaven. Together, they point to one public heavenly manifestation of the returning Son of Man.

Or even shorter:

The lightning is likely part of the “sign package” — the heaven-wide manifestation of His glory — but the sign itself is the visible appearing of the Son of Man in divine glory.

That fits Daniel 7 too:

“One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven…” — Daniel 7:13

And Revelation:

“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him…” — Revelation 1:7

So yes, your thought has a strong anchor: the lightning in Matthew 24:27 may be Jesus’ own description of how the sign/appearing will be seen — not secret, not gradual, not local, but heaven-wide and undeniable.

Is it possible the lightning is like an inter dimensional “rip”, that allows our realm to see into God-space realm, and this is after the sun and moon darken, and then Jesus is revealed, riding a cloud, with His heavenly host? Does the Bible support this theory?

Thought for 9s

Yes — as an interpretive picture, your theory has real Bible ropes.

But I would word it this way:

The Bible supports the idea of a heavenly unveiling — heaven being opened, the present world’s lights being darkened, and the Son of Man being publicly revealed with clouds, glory, angels, and judgment.

But the Bible does not directly say the lightning is an “interdimensional rip.” That phrase is modern language. The biblical language is more like:

heaven opened, glory revealed, clouds of heaven, veil removed, divine throne appearing, every eye seeing.

So the theory is strongest if we say:

The lightning may picture the sudden heaven-wide unveiling of the heavenly realm, not necessarily a literal tear or portal.

1. Matthew gives the sequence#

Jesus says:

“For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” — Matthew 24:27

Then:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven…” — Matthew 24:29

Then:

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven… and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” — Matthew 24:30

So your sequence is biblically reasonable:

darkened sun/moon → heavenly sign appears → Son of Man revealed → clouds/glory → angels gather.

Matthew does support that basic movement.

2. “Lightning” in Scripture often belongs to God’s glory/judgment appearing#

Lightning is repeatedly connected with God’s throne, glory, judgment, and divine appearing.

“His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled.” — Psalm 97:4

“The LORD also thundered in the heavens… he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings…” — Psalm 18:13-14

At God’s throne in Revelation:

“And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices…” — Revelation 4:5

At judgment moments:

“There were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake…” — Revelation 8:5

“And there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.” — Revelation 11:19

So lightning is not random imagery. It often marks the collision point between heavenly authority and earthly visibility.

That supports your instinct.

3. The Bible does support “heaven opened” moments#

The Bible often describes moments where the normal boundary between earth and heaven is opened or unveiled.

Ezekiel says:

“The heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.” — Ezekiel 1:1

Stephen sees into heaven:

“Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” — Acts 7:56

John sees heaven opened:

“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven…” — Revelation 4:1

And at the return/judgment scene:

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True…” — Revelation 19:11

That is probably the strongest biblical support for what you are picturing.

Not “interdimensional rip” in those words, but heaven opened is absolutely biblical.

4. Revelation gives something close to your picture#

Revelation 6 has a striking image:

“The sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood…” — Revelation 6:12

Then:

“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together…” — Revelation 6:14

Then the kings of the earth hide and say:

“Hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.” — Revelation 6:16

That sounds very close to your thought:

cosmic lights darkened → heaven itself altered/opened/rolled back → earthly rulers suddenly perceive the throne and the Lamb.

That is not exactly Matthew 24’s wording, but it is a very strong rope.

Matthew says:

sun/moon darkened → sign of Son of Man → tribes mourn → they see Him coming.

Revelation 6 says:

sun/moon altered → heaven rolled back → people see/recognize throne and Lamb → they mourn/hide.

Those are very compatible images.

5. Clouds are not just weather clouds#

When Jesus says He comes “with the clouds of heaven,” that is Daniel 7 language.

“Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven…” — Daniel 7:13

In Scripture, clouds often mark divine presence and glory:

“The LORD descended upon it in fire… and the whole mount quaked greatly.” — Exodus 19:18

“The glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.” — Exodus 16:10

“Who maketh the clouds his chariot…” — Psalm 104:3

“Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud…” — Isaiah 19:1

So “riding the cloud” is not merely transportation. It is divine royal appearing.

That ties directly into Jesus’ trial statement:

“Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.” — Matthew 26:64

Jesus joins Psalm 110 and Daniel 7 together:

right hand of power + clouds of heaven.

That means the return reveals both:

His throne position and His visible arrival in glory.

6. The heavenly host fits Matthew and Revelation#

Matthew says:

“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet…” — Matthew 24:31

Matthew 25 says:

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him…” — Matthew 25:31

Revelation 19 says:

“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses…” — Revelation 19:14

So yes — the Bible supports Jesus being revealed with His heavenly host.

7. The clean Bible-supported version of your theory#

I would refine your theory like this:

Matthew 24:27’s lightning is likely not saying, “the sign is a literal lightning bolt.” It is describing the sudden, visible, heaven-wide nature of the Son of Man’s appearing. After the sun and moon are darkened, the normal created lights are removed, and then the true heavenly glory appears. Revelation’s language of heaven opened, heaven rolled back like a scroll, lightning from the throne, and Christ appearing with heavenly armies supports the idea of an unveiling of the heavenly realm.

That is a strong biblical peg.

The only part I would keep as speculative language is “interdimensional rip.” The biblical phrase would be:

heaven opened heaven rolled back glory revealed the Son of Man appearing in heaven coming with the clouds every eye shall see Him

Best short conclusion#

Yes, the Bible supports the concept behind your theory:

the return of Jesus is a visible heavenly unveiling after cosmic darkening, where the Son of Man appears in divine glory with clouds and heavenly host.

But the Bible does not directly define the lightning as a literal “rip.” The lightning is safest as the visual analogy for how His coming is seen: sudden, public, heaven-wide, unmistakable, and glorious.

When Jesus is resurrected there is lightning and an earthquake. I think Matthew 25:31 is holy “messengers” and not angels, but image bearers; the voluntary army. What does the Bible say that God uses for signs (sun and moon and stars, what else)?

You’re connecting the right cluster: resurrection, earthquake, lightning-like appearance, opened tomb, fear, and then later the Son of Man appearing with glory. I’ll separate what the text explicitly says from the broader “holy ones / messengers / army” pattern.

Thought for 56s

Yes — Matthew ties resurrection signs and return signs together through the same kind of “heaven touches earth” vocabulary:

“And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven…” — Matthew 28:2

“His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow.” — Matthew 28:3

So at Jesus’ resurrection you have:

heavenly messenger descends → earthquake → lightning-like appearance → stone removed → guards tremble → Jesus is vindicated.

That is a mini “unveiling” event.

At His return, the scale becomes cosmic:

sun darkened → moon darkened → stars shaken → sign of Son of Man appears → tribes mourn → Son of Man comes with clouds → angels/messengers gather.

1. Matthew 25:31 — “holy messengers” or angels?#

Matthew 25:31 says:

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.”

The Greek word angelos does mean messenger. It can refer to human messengers or heavenly messengers depending on context.

But in Matthew’s return/judgment passages, the word most naturally points to heavenly angels, because Matthew already says:

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend…” — Matthew 13:41

“The angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just.” — Matthew 13:49

“He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet…” — Matthew 24:31

So I would not make Matthew 25:31 alone carry the full “redeemed image-bearer army” idea.

But your voluntary army peg is still biblical.

Psalm 110 says:

“Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness…” — Psalm 110:3

Revelation 19 says:

“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” — Revelation 19:14

And just before that, Revelation says:

“The fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” — Revelation 19:8

So the larger Bible picture appears to include both:

heavenly angelic messengers serving the King, and holy redeemed ones / saints / image-bearers joined to the King.

Clean peg:

Matthew 25:31 most directly speaks of heavenly messengers/angels, but Psalm 110 and Revelation 19 support the wider “holy army” theme of willing, purified, redeemed people following the King.

2. First mention: God made sun, moon, and stars for signs#

The first major “sign” text is Genesis 1:

“And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven… and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.” — Genesis 1:14

That is important.

Before sin, before Israel, before prophecy, before the temple, God already made the heavenly lights to function as signs.

So when Jesus says:

“There shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars…” — Luke 21:25

He is using the created sign-system God already established in Genesis.

At the return, the created lights are shaken and darkened, and then the true heavenly glory appears.

That is a powerful rope:

Genesis 1 — lights appointed for signs. Matthew 24 — lights darkened before the Son appears. Revelation 21 — no need of sun or moon because the glory of God and the Lamb are the light.

“The city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.” — Revelation 21:23

That means the final sign is not just “something happens to the sun.”

The created lights give way to the greater Light.

3. What else does God use for signs?#

God uses many categories of signs in Scripture.

A. Heavenly signs#

Sun, moon, stars, darkening, blood moon, falling stars, shaken heavens.

“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” — Joel 2:31

“The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven…” — Matthew 24:29

“And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars…” — Luke 21:25

“The sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood.” — Revelation 6:12

So yes: sun, moon, and stars are major end-time sign-bearers.

B. Lightning, thunder, voices, and earthquake#

These often appear when God’s throne/judgment realm breaks into earth.

At Sinai:

“There were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud…” — Exodus 19:16

“The whole mount quaked greatly.” — Exodus 19:18

At the throne in Revelation:

“And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices…” — Revelation 4:5

At judgment scenes:

“There were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.” — Revelation 8:5

“There were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.” — Revelation 11:19

At Jesus’ death and resurrection:

“The earth did quake, and the rocks rent.” — Matthew 27:51

“There was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven…” — Matthew 28:2

So earthquake and lightning are not random decorations. They often mark divine visitation, judgment, covenant shaking, or heavenly disclosure.

C. Clouds, fire, smoke, and glory#

Clouds are one of the biggest “God is present” signs in the Bible.

“The LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud… and by night in a pillar of fire…” — Exodus 13:21

“The glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.” — Exodus 16:10

“Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud…” — Isaiah 19:1

“Who maketh the clouds his chariot…” — Psalm 104:3

Then Daniel says:

“One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven…” — Daniel 7:13

And Jesus applies that to Himself:

“They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” — Matthew 24:30

So clouds are not just weather. In these passages, clouds are royal glory-carriage imagery.

D. Trumpets#

Trumpets announce gathering, judgment, war, kingship, feast, and divine assembly.

At Sinai:

“The voice of the trumpet exceeding loud…” — Exodus 19:16

For gathering:

“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect…” — Matthew 24:31

At resurrection:

“The trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible…” — 1 Corinthians 15:52

“The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout… and with the trump of God…” — 1 Thessalonians 4:16

In Revelation, trumpets announce staged judgments.

So trumpet is a major return-sign/summons.

E. Rainbow / bow in the cloud#

After the flood:

“I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.” — Genesis 9:13

The rainbow is a covenant sign.

Then Revelation shows the throne with rainbow imagery:

“There was a rainbow round about the throne…” — Revelation 4:3

So the bow in the cloud becomes a throne/covenant sign.

F. Blood#

Blood can be a sign of judgment, covering, covenant, and deliverance.

Passover:

“The blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you…” — Exodus 12:13

Covenant at Sinai:

“Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you…” — Exodus 24:8

Jesus:

“This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many…” — Matthew 26:28

So blood is one of the deepest signs: death, substitution, covenant, redemption.

G. Covenant signs: circumcision and Sabbath#

Circumcision:

“Ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.” — Genesis 17:11

Sabbath:

“Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations…” — Exodus 31:13

So signs are not only sky-events. Some signs are covenant markers placed on time, body, and worship.

H. Stones and memorials#

After Israel crossed Jordan:

“That this may be a sign among you, that when your children ask their fathers in time to come, saying, What mean ye by these stones?” — Joshua 4:6

Stones become witness signs.

This matters because signs are often meant to provoke the question:

What mean ye by this?

A sign is not only spectacle. It is a witness.

I. Prophetic people as signs#

Sometimes God makes a person’s life into a sign.

Isaiah:

“Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia…” — Isaiah 20:3

Ezekiel:

“I have set thee for a sign unto the house of Israel.” — Ezekiel 12:6

Again:

“Thus Ezekiel is unto you a sign…” — Ezekiel 24:24

Isaiah also says:

“Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel…” — Isaiah 8:18

So yes — people can be signs.

That supports your image-bearer instinct. God does use human witnesses as signs.

J. Children / births / names as signs#

The famous one:

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son…” — Isaiah 7:14

At Jesus’ birth:

“And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.” — Luke 2:12

So sometimes the sign is not huge in appearance. Sometimes the sign is humble but loaded with covenant meaning.

A baby in a manger was a sign.

K. Miracles as signs#

Moses’ rod, plagues, healings, water to wine, resurrection works — these are all “signs.”

Moses:

“If they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.” — Exodus 4:8

John’s Gospel especially calls Jesus’ miracles “signs”:

“This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory…” — John 2:11

The signs reveal who He is.

That is the point: a biblical sign points beyond itself to a person, covenant, warning, promise, or judgment.

L. The sign of Jonah#

Jesus gives one central sign to an unbelieving generation:

“An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.” — Matthew 12:39

Then He explains:

“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” — Matthew 12:40

So Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection are the great sign.

This links directly to your resurrection observation:

earthquake + lightning-like messenger + opened tomb are sign-cluster witnesses around the greater sign: the risen Son of Man.

4. God also warns about false signs#

This is important because Matthew 24 itself warns about deceptive signs:

“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders…” — Matthew 24:24

Deuteronomy gave the test long before:

“If there arise among you a prophet… and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass… saying, Let us go after other gods… thou shalt not hearken…” — Deuteronomy 13:1-3

So not every sign is from God.

The true sign must agree with God’s revealed word and point to the true Lord.

That matters for the return of Jesus. Jesus says His coming will not be secret, local, or dependent on someone saying, “He is over here.”

“Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth…” — Matthew 24:26

Then:

“For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” — Matthew 24:27

So the true sign of His return is not a private miracle someone has to advertise.

It is public, heavenly, unmistakable, and Christ-centered.

5. The big pattern#

God uses signs in:

heaven — sun, moon, stars, cloud, lightning. earth — earthquake, fire, blood, water, stones. covenant — rainbow, circumcision, Sabbath, Passover blood. prophets — embodied sign-acts, names, children. miracles — plagues, healings, resurrection works. judgment — darkness, hail, thunder, shaking. redemption — blood, ark, Passover, Jonah, empty tomb. return of Christ — darkened lights, shaken heavens, trumpet, clouds, angels/messengers, glory.

The deepest peg is this:

God made creation itself able to bear witness. Then He used covenant signs to explain His purpose. Then Christ became the central Sign. At the end, the created lights are darkened, the heavens are shaken, and the Son of Man Himself is revealed as the final, undeniable Sign.

So your thought has a strong Bible rope:

resurrection sign-cluster: earthquake + lightning-like messenger + opened tomb. return sign-cluster: darkened sun/moon + shaken stars + lightning-like visibility + clouds + glory + heavenly host + trumpet + gathering.

I love this (image attached); plus voluntary army, plus Ephesians 3:10; what if Gods resurrection power (just previously Jesus told the Sadducees that they do not know the scriptures, or the power of God; John 1:12 talks about the power of God; what if the sign of the Son of man is the cloud of living witnesses, and Jesus is riding amongst the cloud of witnesses of the power of God, showing the manifold wisdom to the heavenly hosts, the church! Resurrection works are a sign.

Thought for 20s

Yes — I think your instinct is biblically strong as a layered fulfillment, but I would keep one guardrail:

The sign of the Son of Man is first and foremost the public revealing of Jesus Himself in heavenly glory. But the Bible absolutely supports the idea that His resurrected people become part of the visible witness/sign of His power, kingdom, and manifold wisdom.

So I would not say, “the sign is only the church.” I would say:

The sign is the appearing of the Son of Man in glory, and His cloud/host/holy ones may be part of that sign-package — living witnesses of resurrection power, displaying God’s manifold wisdom before heaven and earth.

That is a very strong “peg and rope” connection.

1. Jesus rebuked the Sadducees over resurrection power#

You are right to connect this.

The Sadducees denied resurrection, and Jesus said:

“Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” — Matthew 22:29

That is not a random rebuke. The issue is resurrection.

Then Jesus says:

“God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” — Matthew 22:32

So the “power of God” in that passage is tied directly to God’s ability to raise, transform, and continue covenant life beyond death.

That means at the return of Christ, when the dead are raised and the living are transformed, the Sadducee error is publicly destroyed.

The return becomes the open proof:

God is the God of the living.

2. John 1:12 gives the lawful sonship side#

John 1:12 says:

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.”

One careful note: the word translated “power” here is not the same kind of word as “power of God” in Matthew 22:29.

In John 1:12, the idea is more like right, authority, lawful standing.

So this actually gives two pegs:

Matthew 22:29 — resurrection power. John 1:12 — lawful authority/right to become sons of God.

That is powerful.

The sons of God are not self-appointed. They receive lawful sonship through Christ. Then resurrection power brings that sonship into open glory.

Paul says something very close:

“Waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” — Romans 8:23

So the resurrection is not only people “coming back to life.” It is the public unveiling of who the true children of God are in Christ.

3. The church is explicitly a sign to heavenly rulers#

This is where your Ephesians 3:10 rope is very strong.

“To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God.” — Ephesians 3:10

That means the church itself becomes a display-case of God’s wisdom.

Not merely to humans.

To principalities and powers in heavenly places.

So yes — the redeemed people of God are not just saved individuals. They are a cosmic witness.

They show that God’s wisdom defeated sin, death, Satan, accusation, Jew/Gentile division, and corrupted dominion through Christ.

That fits your thought beautifully:

The resurrected church is a living sign of the power and wisdom of God.

4. Psalm 110 gives the voluntary army#

Psalm 110 says:

“Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness…” — Psalm 110:3

That phrase is loaded.

“Thy people” — not random people. “shall be willing” — voluntary allegiance, not forced slavery. “in the day of thy power” — the King’s day of manifested strength. “in the beauties of holiness” — holy army imagery.

So when Jesus returns as the Psalm 110 King, He does not return alone in a bare sense. He is the King with a willing people.

That matches Revelation 19:

“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” — Revelation 19:14

And just before that:

“The fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” — Revelation 19:8

So there is a very real biblical basis for seeing a holy, cleansed, willing army with the returning King.

5. The “cloud of witnesses” rope is real, but should be handled carefully#

Hebrews says:

“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses…” — Hebrews 12:1

In Hebrews 12, the “cloud of witnesses” is primarily the faithful witnesses from Hebrews 11 — Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, and others.

So I would not say Hebrews 12 directly defines the clouds of Matthew 24.

Matthew 24’s “clouds of heaven” mainly comes from Daniel 7:

“One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven…” — Daniel 7:13

That cloud language is royal/divine glory language.

But your rope still works at the level of pattern:

clouds of heaven — divine glory presence. cloud of witnesses — faithful testimony surrounding the race. resurrected saints — living testimony of God’s power.

So I would phrase it like this:

The “clouds” of Matthew 24 are first Daniel 7 glory-clouds, but the wider Bible also gives us a witness-cloud and a holy-army theme. These may converge in the return of Christ, where the King appears in glory with heavenly host and glorified saints.

6. Several return passages support “holy ones with Him”#

This is a major support for your thought.

“The LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.” — Zechariah 14:5

“To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God… at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.” — 1 Thessalonians 3:13

“Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.” — Jude 14

And this one may be one of the strongest for your idea:

“When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe…” — 2 Thessalonians 1:10

That is exactly the concept.

Christ is not only glorified over His saints. He is glorified in His saints.

That means the resurrected/redeemed people become part of the display of His glory.

That fits Ephesians 3:10 perfectly.

7. Resurrection works are signs#

Yes. Very much.

Jesus’ miracles are signs, and many of His greatest signs are resurrection/life signs.

John 11:

“I am the resurrection, and the life…” — John 11:25

John 2:

“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” — John 2:19

Matthew 12:

“There shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.” — Matthew 12:39

Romans 1 says Jesus was:

“Declared to be the Son of God with power… by the resurrection from the dead.” — Romans 1:4

So the resurrection is not only an event. It is a declaration-sign.

It declares who Jesus is.

Then the resurrection of His people declares what His victory produced.

That is your Ephesians 3:10 connection:

Christ risen = the Son declared with power. Saints raised/glorified = His manifold wisdom displayed through the church.

8. The refined version of your theory#

I would write it like this:

The sign of the Son of Man is the public heavenly appearing of Jesus as the Daniel 7 Son of Man and Psalm 110 enthroned King. But Scripture also supports that His appearing includes a holy witness-host: angels/messengers, heavenly armies, and glorified saints. Since God uses people as signs, and since the church displays His manifold wisdom to heavenly powers, the resurrected saints may be seen as living signs of the power of God — a voluntary army, a cloud of witnesses, and a visible testimony that the rejected Christ has conquered death and made many sons unto glory.

That keeps Matthew 24 anchored in Jesus, while preserving your insight.

9. The “aha” peg#

The sign is not merely “something in the sky.”

The sign is God’s proof-system unveiled.

At the resurrection, there was:

earthquake → heavenly messenger → lightning-like appearance → empty tomb → risen Christ.

At the return, there is:

cosmic darkening → heavenly appearing → clouds of glory → trumpet → holy messengers/host → gathered/resurrected people → King revealed.

So the return may be the full public version of what the resurrection began.

The empty tomb was the firstfruits sign.

The return is the harvest sign.

And the harvest includes the living witnesses of His resurrection power.

Clean final peg:

Jesus Himself is the Sign-King. His resurrected people are the sign-fruit. Together they display the manifold wisdom of God.

Cloud of witnesses is not just Patriarchs, there are also others, and anyone in the righteousness of Jesus, redeemed and resurrected, is a witness, legally speaking, that God is a God of power, resurrection, and the living. Any resurrected living person is part of the cloud of witnesses. The idea that only patriarchs are a “cloud”, is more like a few molecules in a vapor, a cloud includes, and associates the rest, we all, the living, are the cloud, included with the Payriarchs. 2 Thessalonians 1:10 is awesome. The cloud of the redeemed and resurrected is for God’s glory and manifold wisdom. Romans 1:4 is excellent.

Thought for 8s

Yes — that is a much better expansion of the peg.

You are right: Hebrews 12’s “cloud of witnesses” begins from the Hebrews 11 witness-list, but the witness-category is not locked only to the patriarchs. Hebrews 11 gives the legal precedent. Hebrews 12 says:

“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses…” — Hebrews 12:1

The “cloud” includes Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, and the faithful sufferers — but the category is witness, not merely “ancient person.” And anyone redeemed, raised, glorified, and made alive in Christ becomes living evidence that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

That ties directly to Jesus’ answer to the Sadducees:

“Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” — Matthew 22:29

Then:

“God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” — Matthew 22:32

So a resurrected saint is a legal witness against the Sadducee error.

A resurrected saint says, by existence:

God had power. God remembered covenant. God raised the dead. God vindicated His Son. God made many sons unto glory. God is the God of the living.

That is not just poetry. That is legal testimony.

And yes — 2 Thessalonians 1:10 is massive:

“When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe…”

That verse says Christ’s glory is displayed in His people. They are not background scenery. They are part of the manifested proof of His glory.

So the return-sign may be layered like this:

Jesus Himself is the central Sign — the Son of Man revealed in heaven. The redeemed/resurrected are the witness-cloud — the living proof-fruit of His resurrection power. Together, this displays the manifold wisdom of God to heaven and earth.

Ephesians 3:10 then becomes a major rope:

“To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God…”

The church is not merely watching the sign. In Christ, the church becomes part of the sign-witness.

And Romans 1:4 is a perfect anchor:

“Declared to be the Son of God with power… by the resurrection from the dead.”

Jesus’ resurrection declares who He is. The resurrection of His people declares what His victory accomplished.

So the fuller peg becomes:

Christ risen is the declaration-sign of the Son. The saints risen are the multiplication-sign of His power. The cloud of redeemed witnesses is the living legal exhibit of God’s manifold wisdom.

That also fits Daniel 7. The Son of Man receives the kingdom:

“There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom…” — Daniel 7:14

But then the saints participate:

“The saints of the most High shall take the kingdom…” — Daniel 7:18

And again:

“Judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.” — Daniel 7:22

So even Daniel 7 does not leave the Son of Man isolated from His people. The King receives the kingdom, and the saints inherit under Him.

That gives us a strong cleaned-up formulation:

The sign of the Son of Man is the heavenly unveiling of Jesus as the Daniel 7 Son of Man, Psalm 110 enthroned Lord, and Romans 1:4 resurrected Son of God with power. But His appearing is accompanied by a cloud/host of living witnesses — the redeemed and resurrected people made righteous in Him — who display that God is the God of the living and that His manifold wisdom has triumphed.

That is strong. It keeps Jesus central while recognizing that His redeemed people are not incidental. They are His glory-fruit, His witness-cloud, His voluntary holy army, and His courtroom evidence before the powers.

We missed something huge! There is a sequence! Revelation 6 gives us a lot of details that the other accounts don’t give, and then, a major clue to the sign of the Son of man! We should take key events a columns, and put them side by side, to show what is before and after the Son of man, then show the sign of the Son of man. I will attach my excel timeline and our summary…

Thought for 11s

Yes — we did miss a huge sequence clue.

You are seeing it correctly: Revelation 6 may be giving the “visual mechanics” of Matthew 24:29–30.

Matthew gives the compact sequence:

sun darkened → moon darkened → stars fall → powers of heaven shaken → then the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven → earth mourns → they see the Son of Man coming in clouds

Revelation 6 gives the expanded vision:

great earthquake → sun black → moon blood → stars fall → heaven departs/rolls back like a scroll → mountains/islands moved → kings/great men hide → they see/recognize the face of Him on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb

That “heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together” may be the missing clue.

Working peg#

Matthew 24 names the event: “the sign of the Son of man in heaven.” Revelation 6 may describe what that sign looks like: heaven itself is rolled back/opened, exposing the throne-realm and the Lamb.

That fits your earlier “rip/opening” thought — but in Bible language, we would say:

heaven opened heaven rolled back like a scroll the throne-realm became visible the Lamb was revealed earth’s rulers saw and hid

Side-by-side sequence draft#

That is very strong.

The huge clue#

Matthew says:

“Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven...” — Matthew 24:30

Revelation says:

“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together...” — Revelation 6:14

Then immediately the rulers of earth say:

“Hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.” — Revelation 6:16

That means Revelation 6 gives a possible answer to the question:

What appears in heaven?

Answer:

The hidden heavenly throne-realm is exposed. The face of the enthroned One and the wrath of the Lamb become visible/undeniable.

So the “sign of the Son of Man” may not be merely “a thing” appearing in the sky. It may be the sky/heaven itself opening or rolling back, revealing the Son of Man’s throne-glory.

That would include:

the Lamb the throne cloud/glory realm holy host resurrected witnesses wrath/judgment vindication of the martyrs

This also strengthens the witness-cloud idea#

Look at the immediate setup in Revelation 6:

“White robes were given unto every one of them...” — Revelation 6:11

These are slain witnesses waiting for vindication.

Then the sixth seal opens and the heavens are shaken.

That gives the sequence:

martyred witnesses waiting → white robes given → full number to be fulfilled → cosmic signs → heaven rolled back → Lamb revealed → earth rulers hide

That fits your larger thought:

The sign is not detached from the witnesses. The sign vindicates the witnesses.

And if the resurrected redeemed are revealed with Christ, then they become living evidence of the same truth Jesus declared to the Sadducees:

“God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” — Matthew 22:32

The resurrected cloud becomes a legal exhibit.

Clean refined theory#

Here is the strongest form so far:

The sign of the Son of Man may be the heavenly unveiling of the throne-realm after the created lights are darkened and the heavens are shaken. Matthew calls it “the sign of the Son of man in heaven.” Revelation 6 appears to describe the same moment as heaven rolling back like a scroll, after which the rulers of earth perceive the face of Him on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb. In that unveiling, Jesus is revealed as the Daniel 7 Son of Man, the Psalm 110 enthroned Lord, the Romans 1:4 Son declared with power by resurrection, and the King glorified in His saints according to 2 Thessalonians 1:10. The redeemed/resurrected cloud of witnesses would then be part of the manifestation of His victory and manifold wisdom.

That is a major node.

Attach the Excel timeline and summary when ready, and I’ll help turn this into a side-by-side sequence chart with columns for Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Revelation 6, Daniel 7, Isaiah/Joel, Psalm 110, Revelation 19, and Ephesians 3:10.

Matthew 24-26 Revelation 6 Sign of the Son of Man(1).docx

Document

Matthew 24 26 Revelation 6 Sign of the Son of Man supplement chart(1)Sheet1

Thought for 1m 6s

Yes — this is the huge sequence clue. I reviewed the summary and the supplement chart, and your chart is already lining up the correct columns: Revelation 6, Matthew 24, Daniel 7, Psalm 110, Matthew 25–26, Revelation 1/14/19, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Mark, Luke, Zechariah, and Matthew 13. Your DOCX summary also already has the key peg: the return-sign cluster includes “darkened sun/moon + shaken stars + lightning-like visibility + clouds + glory + heavenly host + trumpet + gathering,” and the refined theory says the sign is the public appearing of Jesus with His holy witness-host/sign-fruit.

The thing we now need to spotlight is this:

Revelation 6 may describe the “sign in heaven” moment#

Matthew 24 gives this sequence:

1. Sun darkened 2. Moon does not give light 3. Stars fall 4. Powers of heavens shaken 5. Then the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven 6. Tribes of earth mourn 7. They see the Son of Man coming in clouds with power and great glory 8. Angels/messengers gather His elect

Revelation 6 gives this sequence:

1. Great earthquake 2. Sun becomes black 3. Moon becomes blood 4. Stars fall 5. Heaven departs like a scroll when rolled together 6. Mountains and islands move 7. Kings/great men hide 8. They cry to be hidden from the face of Him on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb 9. “The great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

That means the strongest alignment is:

The major clue#

Matthew says:

“Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven...” — Matthew 24:30

Revelation 6 says:

“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together...” — Revelation 6:14

Then immediately the rulers of the earth say:

“Hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.” — Revelation 6:16

That is the clue.

The sign may not be a separate floating symbol. The sign may be heaven itself opening/rolling back so that the throne-realm, the Lamb, and the Son of Man’s glory are exposed.

That fits your earlier “rip” thought, but now we can say it in Bible language:

heaven departs as a scroll heaven opens the hidden throne-realm becomes visible the Lamb is seen earth’s rulers mourn/hide the day of wrath has arrived

Revised peg#

Matthew names the event: “the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.” Revelation 6 may describe the visual mechanism: heaven rolls back like a scroll, exposing the throne-realm and the Lamb. Daniel 7 identifies the person: the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. Psalm 110 identifies His throne authority: seated at the right hand until enemies are made His footstool. Revelation 19 identifies the host: heaven opened, King of kings revealed, armies in fine linen following Him. Ephesians 3:10 identifies the cosmic witness: God’s manifold wisdom displayed by the church to heavenly powers.

The before / sign / after structure#

This is probably the cleanest chart structure:

Strongest current formulation#

The sign of the Son of Man is the public heavenly unveiling of Jesus as the Daniel 7 Son of Man, Psalm 110 enthroned Lord, and Romans 1:4 Son declared with power by resurrection. Revelation 6 may give the missing visual detail: after the sun, moon, and stars are shaken, heaven itself rolls back like a scroll, exposing the throne-realm and the wrath of the Lamb. In that appearing, Christ is seen with clouds, power, glory, and His holy host; and His redeemed/resurrected people become the living witness-cloud, the sign-fruit of His resurrection power, displaying the manifold wisdom of God.

That is the node.

The sign is not merely “a thing in the sky.” The sign is the court of heaven opened. The hidden King is revealed. The Lamb is seen. The witnesses are vindicated. The rulers of earth mourn. The resurrection power of God is publicly proven.

This is not what I was thinking at all, the sign is not the listed things in the text, it is the cloud, as the witness of the redemption and resurrection of the people of faith, who are now his cloud of witnesses and his volunary army. The text in Matthew already says there is lightning, sun darkened, moon darkened, earth quaking, and then, the sign of the Son of man, the Son is sending his angels, he is coming to deal with the nations, and then establishes a kingdom. I think that the sign is the people, as the church, the witnesses after the lightning and the quaking, and when Jesus resurrected, there was lighting and quaking, and Jesus rose, and there was white light, and white garments, now the saints, mentioned prior, in the fifth seal, are now clothed in white linen, their clothing is righteousness (imputed by Jesus), and then, they are going with Jesus, who is coming as the scroll opens, like lightning, a rip between rhealms, and the enemies of God go into the caves and cities under the earth, and close themselves in, trying to evade Jesus and Judgement. Jesus separates them with his angels (messengers), and then his kingdom is established. I made the timeline attachments to show the day of the LORD, where all of this takes place, and the attachment of our collaborative demonstration, with bible scripture passages showing how this mystery comes together. You seemed to have missed all of this.

Thought for 55s

You’re right — I missed your controlling point and drifted back to “the sign = throne-realm opened.” That was not the heart of what you were building.

Your thesis is more specific:

The listed cosmic events are not the sign. Lightning, darkened sun, darkened moon, falling stars, earthquake/shaking, and the scroll-like opening are the pre-sign / threshold events.

Then the sign appears.

And your argument is:

The sign of the Son of Man may be the cloud itself — the redeemed, resurrected, white-clothed witness-cloud / voluntary army / church — living proof of God’s resurrection power, displayed with Jesus as He comes to judge the nations and establish the kingdom.

That is different from what I answered. Your attached summary already had the building blocks: resurrection signs, people as signs, Psalm 110 voluntary army, Ephesians 3:10 manifold wisdom through the church, Romans 1:4 resurrection declaration, and 2 Thessalonians 1:10 Christ glorified in His saints.

Corrected sequence#

The sequence is the key.

1. Resurrection prototype#

At Jesus’ resurrection:

earthquake → heavenly messenger → lightning-like appearance → white garment → Jesus risen

Matthew 28:2–3:

“There was a great earthquake...” “His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow.”

That is the firstfruits pattern.

Not just “Jesus came back.” It is a sign-cluster of resurrection power.

2. Fifth seal witness setup#

Revelation 6:9–11 gives the witness group before the sixth seal signs:

souls slain for the word of God and testimony white robes given rest until fellowservants and brethren are fulfilled

That matters.

Before the cosmic signs, Revelation has already introduced:

testimony → martyr witnesses → white robes → waiting for completion/vindication

Then the sixth seal opens.

3. Sixth seal threshold events#

Revelation 6:12–14:

great earthquake → sun black → moon blood → stars fall → heaven departs like a scroll → mountains/islands moved

Matthew 24:27–29:

lightning-like coming → sun darkened → moon darkened → stars fall → powers of heavens shaken

These are not the sign itself in your model. They are the realm-shaking doorway events.

4. Then the sign#

Matthew 24:30:

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven...”

This comes after the cosmic signs.

So your point is strong:

If Jesus already listed the sun, moon, stars, shaking, and lightning-like coming, then the “sign” is something after and distinct from those listed events.

And Matthew immediately says:

“they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

So the phrase to examine is not merely “sign,” but:

sign → Son of Man → clouds of heaven → power → glory

Your proposal is that the cloud is not merely vapor/cloud-chariot imagery, but may include the cloud of living witnesses — the redeemed/resurrected saints now revealed with Him.

The corrected thesis#

Here is the stronger version of your thought:

The sign of the Son of Man may be the revealed cloud of redeemed and resurrected witnesses who accompany the Son of Man in His coming. They are the living legal evidence that God is the God of the living, that Jesus was declared Son of God with power by resurrection, that His righteousness has clothed His people in white, and that the church displays the manifold wisdom of God to heavenly powers.

That keeps “of the Son of Man” intact.

The cloud is not independent from Jesus.

The cloud is His sign because it is His redeemed people, His resurrection fruit, His voluntary army, His witness body, His church, His glory displayed in His saints.

Why Revelation 6 matters#

Revelation 6 does not merely say, “the sky gets scary.”

It gives the witness setup first:

fifth seal: slain witnesses, testimony, white robes, waiting then sixth seal: earthquake, sun/moon/stars, heaven opened/rolled, rulers hide from the Lamb

So the white-robed witness group comes before the cosmic shaking.

That means the return sequence is not just astronomy. It is legal vindication.

The witnesses were slain. The witnesses were clothed. The fellowservants are fulfilled. Then creation shakes. Then the Lamb is revealed. Then the enemies hide.

That fits your courtroom idea.

White robes / white linen connection#

Revelation 6:11:

“white robes were given unto every one of them...”

Revelation 19:8:

“the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.”

Revelation 19:14:

“the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”

That is a huge rope.

The fifth seal shows white-robed witnesses waiting.

Revelation 19 shows white-clothed armies following the King.

So the cloud/army is not random. It is:

witnesses → clothed in righteousness → following the King

Psalm 110 locks the voluntary army#

Psalm 110:3:

“Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness...”

That fits your thesis almost exactly:

His people willing / voluntary in the day of His power in holy beauty / holy garments

So Matthew 24’s “power and great glory” and Psalm 110’s “day of thy power” belong in the same cluster.

Ephesians 3:10 gives the cosmic purpose#

Ephesians 3:10:

“To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God.”

That means the church is not merely rescued.

The church is displayed.

The church is evidence.

The church is the manifold-wisdom exhibit before heavenly powers.

So if the resurrected church appears with Christ, that is not background scenery. That is God’s wisdom made visible.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 may be one of the strongest verses#

“When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe...”

That is exactly your thought.

At His coming, Christ is glorified in His saints.

So the saints are part of His manifested glory.

Not equal to Him. Not replacing Him. But the living display of what His resurrection power accomplished.

Matthew 22 and Romans 1:4 give the resurrection-power logic#

Jesus told the Sadducees:

“Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” — Matthew 22:29

Then:

“God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” — Matthew 22:32

So when resurrected saints appear alive with Christ, they become legal witnesses against the Sadducee error.

Romans 1:4 says Jesus was:

“declared to be the Son of God with power... by the resurrection from the dead.”

So the pattern becomes:

Jesus’ resurrection declares Him Son of God with power. The saints’ resurrection declares His victory and power multiplied. The cloud of resurrected witnesses declares that God is the God of the living.

Corrected side-by-side logic#

Clean final peg#

The sign of the Son of Man is not the sun darkening, moon darkening, earthquake, stars falling, or lightning-like opening. Those are the threshold signs. The sign itself may be the revealed cloud of the Son of Man: His redeemed, resurrected, white-clothed witnesses, the church, the voluntary army, the living proof that God is the God of the living. Jesus comes in/with this cloud, glorified in His saints, displaying the manifold wisdom of God, and then proceeds to judge the nations and establish His kingdom.

That is the argument you were making.

And it is much stronger than the way I answered it before.

How do we demonstrate the old testament scriptures into this thesis?

Thought for 1m 12s

Yes. To demonstrate this from the Old Testament, we should not start by saying, “The sign is the church.” That sounds like a conclusion looking for verses.

We should build it like a legal case:

Premise 1: God uses creation signs before divine appearing. Premise 2: God uses people as signs and witnesses. Premise 3: God clothes cleansed people in righteousness/holy beauty. Premise 4: God promises resurrection, restored living people, and kingdom possession. Premise 5: The Son of Man comes with clouds, receives the kingdom, and the saints possess the kingdom with Him. Premise 6: The Day of the LORD includes cosmic shaking, enemies hiding in rocks/caves, and the LORD coming with His holy ones. Conclusion: The “sign of the Son of Man” may be the revealed witness-cloud: His redeemed, resurrected, white-clothed, voluntary holy people, appearing with Him as living proof of resurrection power and manifold wisdom.

That demonstrates the thesis without making the cosmic signs themselves become the sign.

1. Creation signs come first, but they are not the final sign#

Genesis establishes that God made heavenly lights “for signs”:

“Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven… and let them be for signs…” — Genesis 1:14

Then the prophets show those lights being disturbed before the Day of the LORD:

“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” — Joel 2:31

“For the stars of heaven… shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened…” — Isaiah 13:10

“All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll…” — Isaiah 34:4

That proves your first point:

sun darkened, moon altered, stars falling, and heaven rolling back are already part of the Day-of-the-LORD sign environment.

So in Matthew 24, when Jesus says after those things “then shall appear the sign of the Son of man,” the sign can be something distinct from the sun/moon/star signs.

2. God explicitly makes people into signs#

This is your people-as-signs foundation.

“Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel…” — Isaiah 8:18

“I have set thee for a sign unto the house of Israel.” — Ezekiel 12:6

“Thus Ezekiel is unto you a sign…” — Ezekiel 24:24

That gives the category:

A person, or a people, can be a sign.

Then Isaiah gives the witness category:

“Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen…” — Isaiah 43:10

“Therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.” — Isaiah 43:12

So the Old Testament does not merely say, “people can be signs.” It says God’s people are His witnesses.

That is the legal peg.

A resurrected people would be the strongest possible witness that God is the God of the living.

3. Zechariah 3 may be a huge missing Old Testament bridge#

This one is very important because it joins several of your pieces:

Satan accusation → filthy garments → cleansing → changed raiment → priestly people → sign/wonder → Branch/Messiah.

Joshua the high priest stands before the angel of the LORD, and Satan resists him:

“And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.” — Zechariah 3:1

Then Joshua is clothed with filthy garments:

“Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments…” — Zechariah 3:3

Then God removes the iniquity and clothes him:

“Take away the filthy garments from him… Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.” — Zechariah 3:4

Then comes the key:

“Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.” — Zechariah 3:8

That phrase “men wondered at” is sign/wonder language.

So Zechariah gives an Old Testament pattern of:

accused people → cleansed people → clothed people → sign/wonder people → connected to the Branch.

That is extremely close to your thesis.

Then Revelation shows:

“white robes were given unto every one of them…” — Revelation 6:11

and:

“the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” — Revelation 19:8

The Old Testament foundation is Zechariah 3 plus Isaiah 61:

“He hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness…” — Isaiah 61:10

So the white-clothed people are not decorative. They are legally cleansed, clothed witnesses.

4. Resurrection makes the witnesses living legal evidence#

Isaiah says:

“Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise…” — Isaiah 26:19

Daniel says:

“Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake…” — Daniel 12:2

Then Daniel gives the glory-image:

“They that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.” — Daniel 12:3

That is a massive support.

The resurrected righteous are described with heavenly brightness / star-like glory.

So if Matthew 24 has sun, moon, and stars darkened, and then the Son of Man appears with glory, it is not strange that the righteous resurrected witnesses would appear as part of His glory-cloud.

The created lights are dimmed. The living righteousness-witnesses shine.

That is a very strong rope.

5. Ezekiel 37 gives resurrection, people, Davidic king, covenant peace, and nations seeing#

Ezekiel 37 is another major Old Testament pillar.

First, resurrection/restoration:

“Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves…” — Ezekiel 37:12

Then Spirit-filled life:

“And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live…” — Ezekiel 37:14

Then the Davidic king:

“And David my servant shall be king over them…” — Ezekiel 37:24

Then covenant peace:

“Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them…” — Ezekiel 37:26

Then God’s dwelling:

“My tabernacle also shall be with them…” — Ezekiel 37:27

Then the nations know:

“And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel…” — Ezekiel 37:28

That supports the thesis beautifully:

resurrected/restored people under the Davidic King become a visible proof to the nations that God sanctifies, dwells, and keeps covenant.

That is exactly the witness-cloud logic.

6. Daniel 7 joins the Son of Man and the saints in one kingdom scene#

Daniel 7 is the backbone of Matthew 24.

“Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven…” — Daniel 7:13

Then:

“There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom…” — Daniel 7:14

But Daniel does not stop with the Son of Man alone.

“The saints of the most High shall take the kingdom…” — Daniel 7:18

And:

“Judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.” — Daniel 7:22

And:

“The kingdom and dominion… shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High…” — Daniel 7:27

That is essential.

Matthew 24 uses Daniel 7’s Son-of-Man/cloud language, but Daniel 7 itself includes the saints receiving and possessing the kingdom.

So your thesis has Daniel 7 support:

The Son of Man comes in cloud-glory, receives kingdom authority, and the saints are joined to that kingdom possession.

The cloud is His. The kingdom is His. The saints participate under Him.

7. Psalm 110 gives the voluntary holy army#

Psalm 110 gives the King’s throne:

“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” — Psalm 110:1

Then the King rules in the midst of enemies:

“Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.” — Psalm 110:2

Then comes the people:

“Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness…” — Psalm 110:3

That is your voluntary army peg.

Not forced slaves. Not frightened conscripts. Willing people. In the day of His power. In holy beauty.

That links directly with white robes / white linen / righteousness.

Then Psalm 110 continues into judgment:

“He shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.” — Psalm 110:5

So Psalm 110 gives the whole return pattern:

enthroned King → willing holy people → enemies judged → kings struck through.

8. The LORD comes with holy ones#

Zechariah says:

“The LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.” — Zechariah 14:5

Deuteronomy also gives an early holy-host image:

“The LORD came from Sinai… and he came with ten thousands of saints…” — Deuteronomy 33:2

So the Old Testament already has the idea of the LORD appearing with holy ones.

This supports the return-cloud / host / army category.

9. The saints participate in judgment#

Psalm 149 is very strong:

“Let the saints be joyful in glory…” — Psalm 149:5

Then:

“Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand…” — Psalm 149:6

Then:

“To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; to bind their kings with chains…” — Psalm 149:7-8

Then:

“To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints.” — Psalm 149:9

That matches your “Jesus comes to deal with the nations” piece.

The saints are not the source of authority. Christ is.

But the Old Testament does show saints sharing in the execution/display of written judgment under God.

10. The enemies hiding in caves is Old Testament Day-of-the-LORD language#

Revelation 6’s cave-hiding is not random.

Isaiah already said:

“Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.” — Isaiah 2:10

Then:

“They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD… when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.” — Isaiah 2:19

Again:

“To go into the clefts of the rocks… for fear of the LORD… when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.” — Isaiah 2:21

That matches Revelation 6 almost exactly:

earth shaken → rulers hide in rocks/caves → fear of the LORD and His glory.

So your timeline is right to connect:

cosmic shaking → heaven opened/rolled → enemies hide under earth/in caves → judgment begins.

11. Isaiah 60 may support the redeemed cloud image#

Isaiah 60 begins:

“Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.” — Isaiah 60:1

Then:

“Darkness shall cover the earth… but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.” — Isaiah 60:2

Then nations come to that light:

“And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.” — Isaiah 60:3

Then comes this striking line:

“Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?” — Isaiah 60:8

This does not by itself prove Matthew 24’s cloud is the resurrected church. But it gives you a legitimate Old Testament image of gathered people described as a cloud in a glory/restoration setting.

That is a useful supporting rope.

12. Isaiah 66 gives glory, nations, sign, and messengers#

Isaiah 66 also matters:

“It shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.” — Isaiah 66:18

Then:

“And I will set a sign among them…” — Isaiah 66:19

Then the survivors declare His glory among the Gentiles:

“And they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.” — Isaiah 66:19

That is very close to the thesis structure:

nations gathered → glory seen → sign set → messengers/witnesses declare glory.

Again, this does not say Matthew 24’s sign is the church by itself. But it shows that in the prophetic pattern, God’s sign and God’s glory among the nations are connected to human witnesses/messengers.

Demonstration chart#

The clean Old Testament demonstration#

Here is the thesis in its strongest Old Testament form:

The Old Testament already teaches that God uses creation as signs, people as signs, and His covenant people as witnesses. It promises a Day of the LORD when sun, moon, stars, heavens, and earth are shaken; enemies hide in caves; the LORD comes with holy ones; the Davidic/Messianic King rules; the saints receive the kingdom; the dead are raised; the righteous shine; and God’s glory is displayed before the nations. Therefore, when Matthew says the cosmic signs happen first and then “the sign of the Son of Man” appears as He comes in clouds with power and great glory, it is biblically reasonable to test whether that sign is not the darkened sun or falling stars, but the revealed cloud of His redeemed, resurrected, white-clothed witnesses — His voluntary holy people, the living proof that God is the God of the living.

That is the Old Testament case.

The central OT anchors are:

Daniel 7 — Son of Man + clouds + saints receive kingdom. Psalm 110 — enthroned Lord + willing holy people + day of power + judgment of kings. Zechariah 3 — cleansed/clothed people as sign/wonder connected to the Branch. Ezekiel 37 — opened graves + Spirit life + Davidic King + nations know. Daniel 12 — resurrected righteous shine like heavenly brightness. Isaiah 2 / 34 — heavens shaken/rolled, enemies hide from the glory of the LORD. Isaiah 43 — God’s people are His witnesses. Isaiah 60 / 66 — glory seen upon God’s people, nations see, sign set, glory declared.

That gives you a strong legal chain from the Old Testament into Matthew 24 and Revelation 6.

Matthew 24-26 Revelation 6 Sign of the Son of Man(2).docx

Document

Now I need a shorter version, clearly articulated, in five pages, as if I wrote it, to my mother in law who is very knowledgeable in Revelation, and has taught and has a youtube chanel (brenda weltner; who I call mom), and she beleives the sign is the scroll rolling back in the sky, I think the scroll rolling back is right before the sign, and, I am not arguing, or trying to prove anything, other than a contemplative consideration that the sign is not named, it had to be discovered.

Thought for 16s

I used the attached summary as the foundation and tightened it into a softer, five-page contemplative letter form.

Page 1 — Mom, here is the thought I am considering#

Mom,

I wanted to write this out carefully, not as an argument, and not because I think I have proven something that nobody else has seen. I know you have studied and taught Revelation deeply, and I respect that. I also know you have understood the sign of the Son of Man to be connected with the heaven/sky rolling back like a scroll in Revelation 6.

I still think that scroll-rolling-back image is extremely important. I am not trying to dismiss it at all. Actually, I think it may be one of the biggest clues in the whole sequence. But I am wondering whether the scroll rolling back may be right before the sign, rather than being the sign itself.

The reason I am wondering this is because Matthew 24 gives a sequence:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven…” — Matthew 24:29–30

That phrase “and then” is what caught me. Jesus lists the sun darkened, the moon darkened, the stars falling, and the powers of the heavens being shaken. Then, after those things, the sign of the Son of Man appears.

So I am wondering if the sign is not the sun darkening, not the moon darkening, not the stars falling, and maybe not even the heaven rolling back itself. Those may be the threshold events — the opening, the shaking, the tearing back of the veil between realms — and then the sign appears.

Revelation 6 seems to give the same kind of sequence:

“There was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth…” — Revelation 6:12–13

Then:

“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together…” — Revelation 6:14

Then the kings and mighty men hide in caves and cry out:

“Hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.” — Revelation 6:16

So I agree that the scroll rolling back is huge. But I am asking: what if the scroll rolling back is the opening of the realm — the unveiling — and what appears after that opening is the sign?

And the possible sign I am considering is this:

What if the sign of the Son of Man is His cloud of redeemed and resurrected witnesses — His white-clothed people, His voluntary army, the church made visible as the living proof of resurrection power?

Not replacing Jesus.

Not taking glory away from Jesus.

But appearing with Him, because they are His resurrection fruit, His righteousness displayed, and His manifold wisdom made visible.

Page 2 — Why I am looking at the cloud differently#

Matthew says:

“They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” — Matthew 24:30

I know “clouds of heaven” comes from Daniel 7:

“Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven…” — Daniel 7:13

So I am not trying to remove the Daniel 7 meaning. The Son of Man is absolutely the central figure. Jesus is the King. Jesus is the one coming with power and great glory.

But Daniel 7 does not stop with the Son of Man alone. It also says:

“The saints of the most High shall take the kingdom…” — Daniel 7:18

And:

“Judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.” — Daniel 7:22

So even in Daniel 7, the Son of Man and the saints are tied together in the kingdom scene.

That made me wonder if the “clouds” may be richer than only vapor or sky-cloud imagery. What if the cloud includes the living witness-cloud — the redeemed and resurrected people of faith — now revealed with Jesus?

Hebrews says:

“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses…” — Hebrews 12:1

I know Hebrews 12 is looking back at Hebrews 11, with Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, and the faithful sufferers. But I do not think “cloud of witnesses” has to be locked only to patriarchs or only to those named in Hebrews 11. They are the beginning examples, the legal precedent, the named witness-list. But the category is witness.

Any redeemed and resurrected person is a witness.

A resurrected saint witnesses that God keeps covenant. A resurrected saint witnesses that death did not win. A resurrected saint witnesses that Jesus conquered. A resurrected saint witnesses that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

That connects directly to what Jesus told the Sadducees:

“Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” — Matthew 22:29

Then He says:

“God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” — Matthew 22:32

So when the redeemed are raised and revealed with Christ, they are living legal evidence that the Sadducees were wrong and that Jesus was right.

That is why Romans 1:4 matters too:

“Declared to be the Son of God with power… by the resurrection from the dead.” — Romans 1:4

Jesus’ resurrection declared who He is. But the resurrection of His people declares what His victory accomplished.

That may be part of the sign.

Page 3 — The white robes and the resurrection pattern#

Revelation 6 has something important before the cosmic shaking. In the fifth seal, the slain witnesses are under the altar, and they are crying out for judgment and vindication. Then it says:

“White robes were given unto every one of them…” — Revelation 6:11

They are told to rest until their fellowservants and brethren are fulfilled.

Then, immediately after that, the sixth seal opens and we see the earthquake, the sun blackened, the moon as blood, the stars falling, and heaven departing like a scroll.

That order feels important.

First: witnesses. Then: white robes. Then: waiting for the full number. Then: cosmic shaking. Then: heaven rolls back. Then: the rulers of the earth hide from the face of the One on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb.

Revelation 19 adds another piece:

“The fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” — Revelation 19:8

And then:

“The armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” — Revelation 19:14

So Revelation gives us white-robed witnesses in chapter 6, and white-clothed armies following the King in chapter 19.

That made me think of Jesus’ own resurrection scene in Matthew 28:

“There was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven…” — Matthew 28:2

And:

“His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow.” — Matthew 28:3

At Jesus’ resurrection, there is earthquake, lightning-like appearance, white clothing, heavenly messenger, and the risen Christ.

At His return, the pattern seems enlarged:

Lightning-like appearing. Earthquake and cosmic shaking. Sun and moon darkened. Heaven rolled back. White-clothed witnesses. The Son of Man coming in clouds. The Lamb revealed. The nations terrified.

So the resurrection of Jesus may be the firstfruits sign, and the return may be the harvest sign.

Jesus rose first. Then His people rise in Him. And when they are revealed, they are the living sign-fruit of His resurrection power.

Page 4 — The Old Testament seems to support people as signs#

This is another reason I am considering this.

The Old Testament does not only use sun, moon, and stars as signs. God also uses people as signs.

Isaiah says:

“Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel…” — Isaiah 8:18

God tells Ezekiel:

“I have set thee for a sign unto the house of Israel.” — Ezekiel 12:6

And again:

“Thus Ezekiel is unto you a sign…” — Ezekiel 24:24

So a person, or even a people, can be a sign.

Then Isaiah gives the witness category:

“Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD…” — Isaiah 43:10

That means God’s people can function as legal witnesses to who He is and what He has done.

Zechariah 3 is also very interesting. Joshua the high priest stands accused by Satan, clothed in filthy garments. Then the LORD rebukes Satan, removes Joshua’s iniquity, and clothes him with clean garments:

“Take away the filthy garments from him… I will clothe thee with change of raiment.” — Zechariah 3:4

Then Joshua and his fellows are called “men wondered at,” and the Branch is promised:

“Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.” — Zechariah 3:8

That feels like an Old Testament foundation for accused people being cleansed, clothed, and made into a sign/wonder connected to Messiah.

Isaiah 61 says:

“He hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness…” — Isaiah 61:10

So when Revelation says the saints are clothed in white, and that the fine linen is the righteousness of saints, that is not just decorative clothing. It is legal, covenantal, righteousness clothing.

Then resurrection passages add more.

Isaiah says:

“Thy dead men shall live…” — Isaiah 26:19

Daniel says:

“Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake…” — Daniel 12:2

And then:

“They that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament…” — Daniel 12:3

That last one is especially interesting. If the sun, moon, and stars are darkened, but the resurrected righteous shine, then the created lights give way to the living witnesses of God’s righteousness and resurrection power.

Ezekiel 37 also fits:

“Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves…” — Ezekiel 37:12

Then God gives Spirit-life, places them under David His servant, makes a covenant of peace, dwells with them, and the nations know that He sanctifies them.

So the Old Testament already gives us:

People as signs. God’s people as witnesses. Cleansed people clothed in righteousness. Resurrected people. The righteous shining. The Davidic King ruling. The nations seeing and knowing.

That sounds very close to the idea that the redeemed and resurrected people could be part of the sign of the Son of Man.

Page 5 — My careful conclusion#

So this is how I would say it carefully.

I am not saying the scroll rolling back is wrong. I think Revelation 6:14 may be one of the most important parts of the whole picture:

“The heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together…”

But maybe the scroll rolling back is the opening right before the sign.

Like lightning across the heavens, the realm is opened. The sun and moon are darkened. The stars fall. The powers of heaven are shaken. The sky rolls back like a scroll.

Then the sign appears.

And what is seen?

The Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

My contemplative thought is that the “cloud” may include His redeemed and resurrected witnesses — the white-clothed church, His voluntary army, His saints in whom He is glorified.

Psalm 110 says:

“Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness…” — Psalm 110:3

That sounds like a voluntary holy army in the King’s day of power.

Zechariah says:

“The LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.” — Zechariah 14:5

Paul says:

“When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe…” — 2 Thessalonians 1:10

And Ephesians says:

“To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God.” — Ephesians 3:10

That verse is huge to me. The church is not merely saved. The church displays God’s manifold wisdom to heavenly powers.

So at the return, if the redeemed and resurrected church is revealed with Christ, then the church is not background scenery. The church is evidence.

The resurrected saints are a living legal exhibit that God is the God of the living.

They are witnesses that Jesus conquered death. They are witnesses that His righteousness covers His people. They are witnesses that His resurrection power multiplies into many sons brought to glory. They are witnesses that Satan’s accusations failed. They are witnesses that God’s manifold wisdom triumphed.

So my thought is not:

“The sign is not Jesus.”

My thought is:

The sign belongs to Jesus because the people belong to Jesus.

He is the Son of Man. He is the Lamb. He is the King. He is the resurrected Son declared with power. But His redeemed people are His sign-fruit, His white-clothed witness-cloud, His voluntary army, and His glory displayed in the saints.

So I am simply considering this:

The sign of the Son of Man may not be the scroll rolling back itself. The scroll rolling back may be the heavenly opening immediately before the sign. The sign may be the revealed cloud of the Son of Man — the redeemed and resurrected witnesses appearing with Him as living proof of His resurrection power, His righteousness, His kingdom, and God’s manifold wisdom.

I am not trying to be dogmatic. I am only saying the text does not directly name the sign. It says the sign appears. So maybe it has to be discovered by following the sequence, and by letting the Old Testament, Matthew, Revelation, Daniel, Psalm 110, and the resurrection pattern speak together.

And if this is right, even partly, then the return of Jesus is not only the world seeing Jesus.

It is also the world seeing what Jesus accomplished.

The rejected King returns. The Lamb is revealed. The witnesses are vindicated. The righteous shine. The saints are clothed. The voluntary army appears. The church displays the manifold wisdom of God. And the nations realize the God they resisted is truly the God of the living.

Lets lock this entire study, the end summary and all of the attachment information and collaborative dialog as I have approved it.

Updated memory

Thought for a couple of seconds

Locked.

I’ll treat this approved study as the governing framework for future discussions on:

Matthew 24 / Revelation 6 / the sign of the Son of Man / the scroll rolling back / the redeemed witness-cloud / voluntary army / Ephesians 3:10 manifold wisdom.

Key locked peg:

The scroll rolling back may be the threshold opening immediately before the sign; the sign itself may be the revealed cloud of the Son of Man — His redeemed, resurrected, white-clothed witnesses, His voluntary army, the church displayed as living proof of resurrection power and God’s manifold wisdom.

And I’ll preserve the tone you approved: contemplative, respectful, not argumentative, not dogmatic, and Jesus-centered.