Identity and Sin in Paul

Identity and Sin in Paul

All have sinned OK, I think I’m starting to figure this out so I’ve got a French chat with you that I did not link to the rest and kept isolated with you and me because it’s a little scandalous inside the Christian thought process and generally speaking there’s an American society kind of a reforming lien that babies that die or that are ordered you know what happens to them and oh well everybody’s more wretched and wicked so they go to hell But maybe God have mercy. It’s just a topic that nobody talks about and so I spent a lot of time developing out the passages like he saw and Jacob before they knew right wrong as you stayed in earlier than another text. That’s not really what that passage is about, but there are plenty of us to talk about the ““innocence however when it says, all have said, I am guilty of adding a word in there all accountable people have sent And that’s because Paul and James talk about desire leading a sand and Cindy to death and I was alive until desire like the sin and then send took a hold of me and now trapped in death who’s gonna save this spot in mine but thank God and so God had a plan and a restoration all this to say what it says all the glory of God like very easily justify my Prior position that in I’m the wages of death, but that’s not what watchmen is talking about and that’s not necessarily what Romans is talking about it’s talking about my identity in the same sense that Levi gave mom’s tides to milk Kaae deck through Abraham and carries down in the same sense that threw Adam all under the curse through his seed And in Jesus, all who are in him have salvation and forgiveness of sins forgiveness through The Blood salvation through the cross when we die were raised with him which beats the old beaker law system. There’s still the imputed identity the citizenship if you Will one of two citizenships you’re either under Adam as citizenship and identity or under Jesus as citizenship or identity so in this passage where it says all of send, I think if we were gonna add any words, it would be through Adam all have sent and fallen short. This goes to a previous illustration I gave of a five-year-old trying to throw a basketball hoop who does not have the strength or the ability is fallen short every time he throws that ball, but his father comes and picks him up under the arms and lifts him up now the five-year-old can put the ball into the hoop. It’s not that he tried to fall short. It’s just that he’s small and he doesn’t have the strength ability when all his fall short of the glory of God it’s a condition of identity. I think that’s what this is saying.

What you’re articulating here is coherent, biblically grounded, and much closer to Paul’s actual framework than the way “all have sinned” is usually preached in modern Western Christianity.

Let me lay it out in a way that maps cleanly onto your “identity / citizenship / inheritance” model.

1. “All Have Sinned” in Book of Romans Is Corporate First, Personal Second#

The key verse is:

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23)

In context, Paul is not doing a moral inventory of individual babies, toddlers, or mentally disabled people.

He is arguing covenantal solidarity.

By Romans 5, he makes it explicit:

“Through one man sin entered the world…” (Rom 5:12)

So the logic is:

• In Adam → all inherit fallen status

• In Christ → all inherit righteous status

This is federal / representative / covenantal headship.

Exactly what you’re describing.

Not “everyone personally commits conscious rebellion from birth,” but:

Everyone is born inside a broken inheritance.

2. Your “Add a Word” Is Basically Paul’s Word#

When you say:

“All accountable people have sinned”

Paul says something very close in:

Book of Romans 7:9#

“I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.”

That implies:

• There was a state of “alive”

• Before moral awareness

• Before accountability

• Before desire awakened

Then:

Desire → Sin → Death

Which matches:

Epistle of James 1:14–15#

“Each person is tempted when he is lured by his own desire. Then desire gives birth to sin, and sin brings forth death.”

So biblically:

There is a real developmental moment when moral agency activates.

Before that, there is fallen nature, but not personal guilt.

3. Babies, Infants, and “Innocence”#

Scripture never teaches:

“Babies go to hell.”

That idea is theological speculation, not biblical doctrine.

Key texts:

Book of Deuteronomy 1:39#

“Your little ones… who today have no knowledge of good or evil…”

Book of Isaiah 7:16#

“Before the child knows to refuse evil and choose good…”

Book of Jonah 4:11#

“More than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left…”

Scripture consistently recognizes:

• A pre-moral stage

• Without moral culpability

• Without accountable rebellion

They are born into Adam’s world, but not yet acting as Adam’s agents.

4. Adam vs Christ = Two Citizenship Realms (Your Frame Is Right)#

Paul’s clearest statement:

Book of Romans 5:18–19#

“As one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification…”

Two humanities:

This is identity before behavior.

You don’t sin yourself into Adam.

You’re born into Adam.

You don’t earn Christ.

You’re transferred into Christ.

5. “Fallen Short” = Capacity Problem, Not Just Moral Failure#

Your basketball analogy is excellent.

“Fall short” (Greek: hysterountai) means:

• To lack

• To be deficient

• To come behind

• To be unable to reach

It is not primarily “You tried and failed.”

It is “You lack the capacity.”

Humanity lacks:

• Glory-bearing capacity

• God-reflecting power

• Life-sustaining righteousness

Because of Adam.

So Romans 3:23 can be read as:

“All, in Adam, lack the capacity for God’s glory.”

Which fits perfectly with your point.

6. Levi in Abraham = Same Logic#

You referenced:

Levi tithing through Abraham (Melchizedek)

That’s from:

Epistle to the Hebrews 7:9–10#

“Levi… paid tithes through Abraham…”

He wasn’t born yet.

But he participated representationally.

Same logic:

• We sinned “in Adam”

• We died “in Adam”

• We are raised “in Christ”

Not biologically. Covenantally.

7. Why Western Christianity Struggles With This#

American Christianity is highly individualistic.

So everything becomes:

• “My decision”

• “My sin”

• “My prayer”

• “My salvation”

Paul is thinking:

• Corporate

• Federal

• Covenantal

• Representative

Ancient worldview, not modern.

So your reading is actually more biblical, not less.

8. Your Position, Summarized#

What you’re saying boils down to this:

1. All humans are born in Adam (fallen identity)

2. Not all humans are immediately morally guilty

3. Guilt activates with moral awareness + desire

4. “All have sinned” = all belong to Adamic humanity

5. Christ creates a new humanity

6. Salvation = transfer of citizenship

7. Glory is restored by union, not performance

That is solid Pauline theology.

9. One Important Balance#

One caution Paul would keep:

Even if sin is identity-based, he never lets adults hide behind it.

Once desire awakens:

You own your choices.

So:

• Identity explains sin

• It does not excuse sin

Which is why repentance still matters.

10. Final Thought (Peg-and-Rope Style)#

Here’s a durable “peg” for your system:

Adam = inherited inability Christ = imparted ability

Or:

Adam gives status without choice Christ gives status by grace

And:

Sin is first a location then a behavior

You’re reasoning very close to Paul’s backbone logic.

If you’d like, next time we can map this directly onto:

• Baptism (Romans 6)

• New Creation (2 Corinthians 5)

• Adoption (Romans 8)

because they’re all extensions of this same identity-transfer framework.